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Thread: The NHS; should we draw a line?

  1. #11
    Senior Member julian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post

    What about people who ride bicycles without wearing a helmet? Is that head injury then self inflicted for not protecting themselves?
    I would point out that cycle helmets are much over-praised for their protective abilities. The helmet standard assumes a fall from 6ft - not a collision at 30mph with 1 ton of metal.

    However, the fact remains that the NHS in 5 or 10 years *will* be radically different from the current version. As a country we simply don't have the money to continue affording all the possible treatments for everyone.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    I would point out that cycle helmets are much over-praised for their protective abilities. The helmet standard assumes a fall from 6ft - not a collision at 30mph with 1 ton of metal.

    True, but I didn't suggest in that scenario that the head injury was caused by a car collision. I know people who've suffered brain haemorrhages from simply falling off of a bike without a helmet on.

    Although the example could be extended to inappropriate clothing on motorbikes? Forget helmets for a moment, which are a legal requirement, but not wearing leathers, for example, can have disasterous consequences. Again, just falling off, no other vehicles involved, can cause serious damage. Are we suggesting that they should just hobble home skinned?

    I understand it will be different, but I think saying 'self inflicted' is too broad a term; at what point is the line drawn? Which is the point of this thread, I know. I just don't think you can draw a line on self infliction; seriousness of injury, perhaps, but I don't think you can say 'your fault, we're not dealing with it'.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member julian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post

    Although the example could be extended to inappropriate clothing on motorbikes? Forget helmets for a moment, which are a legal requirement, but not wearing leathers, for example, can have disasterous consequences. Again, just falling off, no other vehicles involved, can cause serious damage. Are we suggesting that they should just hobble home skinned?

    I understand it will be different, but I think saying 'self inflicted' is too broad a term; at what point is the line drawn? Which is the point of this thread, I know. I just don't think you can draw a line on self infliction; seriousness of injury, perhaps, but I don't think you can say 'your fault, we're not dealing with it'.
    I don't think you can draw a line based on self-infliction, TBH. I suspect any limitations will either be by extreme rationing, or by charging money. Having said that, isn't one health trust (Devon, I think) refusing some treatments based on high BMI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post


    I understand it will be different, but I think saying 'self inflicted' is too broad a term; at what point is the line drawn? Which is the point of this thread, I know. I just don't think you can draw a line on self infliction; seriousness of injury, perhaps, but I don't think you can say 'your fault, we're not dealing with it'.
    you could apply that to everything.
    Broken leg from falling over on ice? Should've stayed inside
    Cancer from smoking? Shouldn't have started
    Been in a car crash? Should drive safer
    Heart attack? WE WARNED YOU ABOUT MCDONALDS
    Abusive partner attacked you? it's your fault for staying with them


    literally using that logic anything EXCEPT genetic problems should not be treated on the NHS because lifestyle and circumstance will play a factor. I know my back problem was caused by the heavy cameras I needed for university last year - the NHS didn't refuse to treat me for it. But I know it is MY fault that I have that injury.

    (I agree with you btw Jester, just in case it seems like I don't)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazel View Post
    Seriously? That would also be impossible to regulate. There would also be an insane amount of deaths of people with mental health issues and those who may have had a lower level of education or upbringing, not to mention people who can't afford to look after themselves. All of those groups of people could be seen to be causing their own poor health.
    I didn't say that they shouldn't be treated. They should be treated, but have to pay back a certain percentage of the treatment costs. And I'm talking about drug abuse, alcohol abuse, tobacco abuse, over-eating, body modification problems, etc. - the kind of thing where it's obvious that it is self-inflicted to some degree.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walroz View Post
    I didn't say that they shouldn't be treated. They should be treated, but have to pay back a certain percentage of the treatment costs. And I'm talking about drug abuse, alcohol abuse, tobacco abuse, over-eating, body modification problems, etc. - the kind of thing where it's obvious that it is self-inflicted to some degree.
    You don't seem to realise though that a lot of those issues are a result of other illnesses mainly mental health problems. And what of people who couldn't afford to pay? It just means those living in poverty would just have to die under your rule. It's not as simple as you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walroz View Post
    I didn't say that they shouldn't be treated. They should be treated, but have to pay back a certain percentage of the treatment costs. And I'm talking about drug abuse, alcohol abuse, tobacco abuse, over-eating, body modification problems, etc. - the kind of thing where it's obvious that it is self-inflicted to some degree.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by catface View Post
    *smh*
    Not just me then?

    I honestly think people who think that way are lucky to have never experienced a situation where you end up neglecting yourself due to external forces out of your own control. I worry that we have enough people who think this way in our government already causing people to die for no reason, we don't need more people thinking this way! And as for paying back well again that won't just be keeping the poor poor it will be making them die sooner.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member julian's Avatar
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    The problem is that the NHS as it is currently IS unsustainable - one government or another will have to do something to keep the costs manageable. That will probably involve a mixture of charging, private insurance, rationing and even simply reducing the services offered by the NHS. Reducing the levels of bureaucracy would help too - as would not spending billions on useless IT systems that don't work properly.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by julian View Post
    The problem is that the NHS as it is currently IS unsustainable - one government or another will have to do something to keep the costs manageable. That will probably involve a mixture of charging, private insurance, rationing and even simply reducing the services offered by the NHS. Reducing the levels of bureaucracy would help too - as would not spending billions on useless IT systems that don't work properly.
    I'm aware of that, however simply saying all people who "self-inflict" their injuries have to pay is 1) ridiculous and 2) would be an expensive and logistical nightmare which is already one of the main issues.

    Simply put, it would cause more problems than it solves.
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