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Thread: Tuition Fees.

  1. #11
    Senior Member the_colvin's Avatar
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    also, when they eventually roll this program up to scotland (as they surely will eventually) it'll be even worse for people up here, since a standard degree up here is 4 years, not 3. so for me to do my degree at glasgow uni, not excatly oxford, but still a relatively prestigious place, (not why I went there btw, i went because its the best uni that I can commute to from home, since even with free fees, I can't afford to move out) say they go to 7,500 a year for arguments sake, that's 30,000 in fees alone
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Chappo13's Avatar
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    Well I planned on going back to university after dropping out due to depression and anxiety attacks and now I dont think that I will never be able to afford to go back. I already have 5 thousand pounds worth of debt and that is stressful enough. I currently earn 80 pound per week and have been looking for a full time job with better pay for over a year and a half. If I go back and end up with 30 grands worth of debt I dont no if I would ever be able to pay it off and thats a burden I really dont want. I want to go into archaeology or working for a museum and generally they are not well paid jobs or they have short term contracts if you work as a field archaeologist. At the moment I just feel stuck.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Koschei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_colvin View Post
    also, when they eventually roll this program up to scotland (as they surely will eventually) it'll be even worse for people up here, since a standard degree up here is 4 years, not 3. so for me to do my degree at glasgow uni, not excatly oxford, but still a relatively prestigious place, (not why I went there btw, i went because its the best uni that I can commute to from home, since even with free fees, I can't afford to move out) say they go to 7,500 a year for arguments sake, that's 30,000 in fees alone
    This is where I've been getting confused. The government pays our fees for us now but if that's to change, what happens? Does SAAS help us with fees or are we expected to pay it?
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    Senior Member Alex696's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuku View Post
    I actually voted for lib dem because I was impressed with how forthright and open they were about what they were doing, they weren't trying to butter what they were going to do and I thought them honest. Which is why I think I am so angry because Clegg has gone back on his promise.

    Sounds childish but its true and while I understand that as a government the tories and the libs need to make compromises in order to get anything done I feel that it was a complete cop out on the part of libs, he never seemed to be able to say why he had changed his mind or explain himself fully enough which is not good enough imo. If you are going to swear to something and have to go back on it at least have a damn good, well rationed and well explained reason!

    I understand there has to be a price on education when its at such a level but putting someone into almost 20 years worth of debt when already we are struggling with a national debt seems ridiculous to me. People talk of cutting courses which aren't 'viable' but how can you say something isn't 'viable'? Since when do we have the right to look down on someone's profession as non-viable! If we get rid of these smaller classes of students doing subjects that may seem to be useless to some we risk loosing entire professions, we risk becoming so streamlined and narrow in what people 'can do' as a job that we will have to hire people trained in other countries to cover the holes that appear... which again, with everyone talking about immigrants taking up english jobs, seems illogical.

    The fact of the matter is the cuts to higher education have already seen the closures of some smaller specialist universities and this to me almost sounds like the death knoll for all the other ones if people are having to suddenly face 20 years of debt for them!

    Also I think its unfair to blame labour sololy for the deficit, not only does it take two to tango (And the other parties cannot pretend they didn't know what was going on) but much of the problems with the banks started during all the privatisation and legislations that happened in Thatcher's years. I think they have made to be the scape goat in many ways although I do agree they contributed to it and certainly buried their head in the sand for too long, making the situation worse and I certainly don't think I will vote for them when the time comes around again!
    Well that's unfortunate, politics will forever be like that, the ignorance of the electorate is so that they believe in things without considering the actualities of the policy (Not that I'm calling you ignorant, I'm just saying people in general, tend to not do their homework). The reasons he has changed his mind in regards to education, I have outlined above this, the situation has changed to become much more favourable to students, the libs have created a situation that means the rich pay more, with out the poor being punished much at all.

    In regards to viability I only mean that if the course is costing more than the pupils are paying to be on it, they will stop running it. To speak in a local context, JMU, a university near me, recently cancelled 40 courses because of this.

    In regards to Thatcher I think there's only so much you can put on a previous administration that existed in the 80's, through out Labours last terms they were undeniably incompetent in incurring such a massive debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjs View Post
    I personally think there should be a sliding scale of fees based on your exam results and what you're going to study...got 4 As and off to study at a top 5 institution for your subject? It's free. Got 2 Ds (and I definitely saw places offered for these sort of results when I was going through uni applications) and off to study at anywhere that'll take you? You can pay for it yourself. Note that I'm not making any judgement on the value of a subject here - a top-class history degree is probably of more value than a crap science one, before we get into humanities vs STEM - I'm only judging them on their academic rigourousness.

    Perhaps there could even be some weighting added to take into account the quality of secondary school you attended so if it's a crap school but you've still managed to get high marks it's seen as better than if you went to a private school where *everyone* gets high marks.

    Surely the best and brightest are who we want going to higher education, rather than just those who can afford it?
    So we exclude those who are less academically able from university? I don't really know what your take on rights are, but that doesn't sound very fair to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by l0stf0rw0rds View Post
    Something I haven't seen anyone bring up is the idea that you start paying back when you're earning 21,000 rather than 15,000. So our country is in a shit load of debt right? So if you don't earn 21,000 you don't have to pay it back, fair enough, but who /is going to pay it? There's more scope for people NOT to pay their fees than there is at 15,000 and there's more money that's not being paid back. So where's that money going to come from? The money that's paying for whoever to go to university but aren't earning enough to pay it back?


    All in all I'm extremely angry at all these education cuts, rise in fees and Nick Clegg.
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    The new system involves a sliding scale of interest rate for the higher earners, making it viable. The richer you get, the more you contribute.

  5. #15
    Senior Member stasha-pistachio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex696 View Post
    So we exclude those who are less academically able from university? I don't really know what your take on rights are, but that doesn't sound very fair to me.
    But unis already do this. Theres some wiggle room through clearing for A levels, but not much. And if you ain't got GCSEs, then you ain't going to uni.

    I think rjs was sort of thinking of more widely available scholarships. I like scholarships, the hardest working students get a break and a chance to go to uni whatever their background or financial situation.
    Even if I was Einstein, a future of 30-50-60k of debt? I wouldn't be going to uni... Plus livings getting more expensive - more maintenence loan, even if you could find a job.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member insideout's Avatar
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    I honestly don't know why people consider student loans to be a massive burden. Admittedly I barely earn over 15,000 so I'm only paying off 4 a month on mine but even if it was double or triple that, it's still just insignificant to me. I can still afford to pay my rent and my bills, keep my car running, go out whenever I want, and it shouldn't really affect your ability to get a 'real' loan or mortgage AFAIK. Higher fees would annoy me but more just for the idea - in reality, but they wouldn't put me off going to uni (if I wasn't already there), especially if I didn't have to start paying it off until I was earning over 21,000. It's just not something I think about. Obviously it's unlikely most people will never fully pay it off but it's written off after 30(?) years anyway on the new system (can't remember how long mine will take to be written off...I don't even know how much it is at the moment).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chappo13 View Post
    Well I planned on going back to university after dropping out due to depression and anxiety attacks and now I dont think that I will never be able to afford to go back. I already have 5 thousand pounds worth of debt and that is stressful enough. I currently earn 80 pound per week and have been looking for a full time job with better pay for over a year and a half. If I go back and end up with 30 grands worth of debt I dont no if I would ever be able to pay it off and thats a burden I really dont want. I want to go into archaeology or working for a museum and generally they are not well paid jobs or they have short term contracts if you work as a field archaeologist. At the moment I just feel stuck.
    This is veryvery similar to me, except this will be the first time I go to uni.Being told the fees are going up is more of a pressure for me-I now have to apply this year because there's no way I can afford the higher fees.I want to study art history, and tbh I can't see that being too fruitful on the job front for a while.I don't like the idea of being in debt, mainly because of how i've been brought up, but hopefully I should be entitled to bursaries/grants that can help out, athough you don't have to pay it back till you're earning over 21,000 I still don't like the idea of having that amount over me.

    And we got told the other day that your student loan will be entirely seperate, won't affect getting a loan or anything, so yeah, I suppose you have a point there Kate.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Smithy666's Avatar
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    In regards to this paying back when you earn 21k rather than 15k..

    The average starting salary for, example, a graduate with a Bachelors in an Engineering subject, is around 22k.

    If I thought that after 4 years of study, I could only fall into a 15k job, then I probably wouldn't have bothered applying this year as I was earning that working in a factory a year ago...
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    The starting salary for a Trainee Biomed (straight out of uni, with no HPC registration) is about 18k... So there's one career it might help


  10. #20
    rjs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex696 View Post
    So we exclude those who are less academically able from university? I don't really know what your take on rights are, but that doesn't sound very fair to me.
    Um...of course we should? It's higher education, of course it should be restricted to the more academically able. That's 100000x better than restricting it to those who can afford it...the system should be working such that the deciding factor on whether you can go to uni is how intelligent/hardworking you are, not how rich you are.

    In this country we really need to get past the snobbery that means a lot of people look down on those who do jobs that don't require a degree. In my opinion being a good mechanic/butcher/carpenter is just as valuable to society as someone who's a good engineer/physicist/historian. I personally believe we should have a system more like the one in Germany where the less academically able can leave school and enter into vocational training for something they're interested in much sooner. This quote from another board I visit explains it quite well:

    Quote Originally Posted by someguyfromSwitzerland
    In my country, there are many problems with education, but one thing I think we really got right is our "dual" system of education, as we call it: those who are skilled at manual labor and/or have issues with intellectual endeavors leave school after ninth grade - after secondary school - and take up an apprenticeship. Over the course of this apprenticeship, they are gradually integrated into the workforce at a job of their choosing, they're paid an (admittedly small) salary and they still have some limited school coursework all the while. Other, more intellectually inclined students, attend "high school" where they are prepared for University courses (supposedly).
    The thinking behind all of this is that someone who intends to become a mason or an electrician might be better off if they were introduced to the field of their choosing in a practical manner as soon as possible, while those who intend to go to University will profit from a few more years of preparatory schooling. If it's really true that you guys in England don't really do apprenticeships anymore and that even normal manual jobs require degrees from "polytechnics", then that's ridiculous. This makes the whole educational system incredibly bloated and expensive, because a huge number of young people who could be eased into a particular line of work via apprenticeships have to get more and more costly schooling. Maybe you should think about implementing such a "dual" system; it might unclog your Universities too.
    He's specifically describing the Swiss system but apparently it's virtually the same as the German one.
    Last edited by rjs; 12-11-2010 at 04:51 PM.

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